Category: The Rave Board
Today, we took my grandfather out for lunch, for Veteran's Day. We went to a local pizza place, and this guy walks up to us, thanks him for his service, and then, because "this place is running slow today, and I ordered too much food," his exact words, he hands us 3 slices of cheesy garlic bread, one for each of us. Just thought I'd put this out here because people don't do nice things often enough, so when they do, they should be commended for it.
If I know someone is a current or past veteran, I always try to thank them for their service, and not just on Veterans Day. While I'm glad we have a day that's set aside to celebrate our military men and women, I don't believe that's the only day they should be recognized and thanked for what they do.
I don't thank veterans unless I think they've earned it. I don't give them a
blanket thanks for anything. Mostly because I don't think veterans serve. I don't
think a veteran has actually served since we had a draft. I think they made a
choice, and that's fine, but I don't think they served. Second, because I don't
think a single veteran has done a single thing in defense of this country since
1945. We were never threatened during the Korean War, the Vietnam War we
started, Grenada was a thiny thing where some students were threatned but
that's about all, and Iraq had nothing to do with us either time. We just wanted
oil. Afghanastan kind of threatened us, but not really, and nothing that required
such a big response. So I don't thank veterans, I pity them.
I hope on a day like this that we can reflect on how we can do better by veterans. It's all well and good to have a gala and warm feelings, but these people often really suffer for years afterwards. As to choice? Hard to say, since for many the G.I. bill is the most straightforward way of helping themselves and their families. You ever see the movie Platoon? This rich kid crusader volunteers, and finds himself in with a whole lot of volunteers from poor families, guys just trying to get ahead. It's just not as simple as either the pro por con people make it out to be. Not for the individuals.
My brother has said he gets questions from people where he knows they're asking because they have an answer they already want to hear.
same with all the pomp and circumstance with no real help for veterans.
That's another reason Leo. I feel that thaking veterans for their service is a
good way for us to excuse ourselves for doing nothing about veterans health.
we feel good about ourselves, so we don't actually do anything more than
maybe buy them a beer. its all empty. I don't thank veterans, but I vote for
people who want to get them better post-service health care. I think my action
is better.
I'm like 98% with Cody on this one.
My grandpa served in World War II, but he didn't like to talk about it, so even on November 11 it didn't come up a lot. He wouldn't shut conversation down or anything, but I always got the impression he didn't want to get into it. By the time he died in 2011, it was more than six decades in the past, and he probably felt as if he was defined more by the rest of his life than by his military service.
Generally I'd like to see our military folks treated better when they inevitably come back from whatever they're doing with horrible psychological problems and physical wounds.
There was a guy a couple of years back who was standing on guard near a statue or some such. He got shot in the back and everyone called him a hero. I'm sorry, but that doesn't make you a hero. It makes your death tragic as hell, but you aren't a hero because you got shot in the back guarding a statue.
I have some issues with Iraq/Vietnam and stuff, but that doesn't mean I don't have sympathy for some of the hell people went through when they went over there. Patriotism breeds ignorance, I sometimes think, particularly where the military is concerned. I bet you a lot of people get into the military thinking they know what's coming, only to realize they didn't know the half of it. And that goes triple for anyone who's seen live action, been shot at, watched a friend get eviscerated or blown in half, or worse. I can't even imagine how ugly that would be, how traumatic, and even if the wars themselves were none of America's business, that doesn't necessarily stop me feeling sorry as hell for the victims. All of them, mind.
Cody and Wolf. YOU guys entirely miss the point of veterans day. You talk about wars with which you do not agree. Fine, we fight that battle at the ballot box. But I'd point out that the vast majority of veterans never fire a shot in anger and have not been in a hot war. They are doing the hard, tedious, and sometimes very dangerous work of preventing war. They monitor our early warning systems. They man the demilitarized zones of places like Korea, the China Sea, and until recently the East German border. They are there specifically to prevent a war like WW2. Did they get drafted? No, they did something even harder, they consciously volunteered. The pay is shit, the danger can be very real, if they are deployed to a war zone it is a hardship on their families. Tha vast majority do it because they believe protecting our nation is worth the sacrifice. To judge them as not worthy of thanks by snnot nosed brats who have never sacrificed much of anything real is disgusting and arrogant in the extreme. Even those who did fight in wars with which you do not agree, had no choice once they had enlisted. You go where you are sent. At risk of life and limb, you are often defending local civilians of what ever hell hole your in. I'd point out also that Korea and Vietnam was fought mostly by draftees. Perhaps you'd prefer we have no military at all and you get to defend your home yourself? Good luck with that! Saying thank you takes very little effort and I know for a fact does make a difference to those you thank.
Paraphrasing an article by the Associated Press...A teenager named Rishi Sharma is on a mission to film interview WWII combat veterans to ensure each one's legacy. According to the National WWII Museum, about 400 die each day.
Bill, I don't give credit for a dangerous job. If I did that, I'd have to thank
crab fishermen and garbage collecters, too jobs which are actually much more
dangerous than being in the military. I don't see either of them getting a
holiday. As for the jobs they do, I know perfectly well what jobs they do. First, I
hate the fact that our military is watching borders in other countries. Tehre is no
reason for us to be watching the border of North Korea, the south Koreans can
handle that. A lot of the really dangerous early warning systems are actually run
by civilians, not military. Norad, for example, is mosly civilians, not military.
They have a connection with the airforce, but its mostly civilians. And even so, it
doesn't change the fact that I don't think veterans are that deserving of instant
gratitude.
I'm sorry Cody, that just seems extremely ungrateful to me and unnecessarily prickish. Soldiers do not make these policies with which you disagree. Civilians do. Unless you are willing to go defend your country yourself, you should at least thank those who put their lives on the line to do it for you while you get on with your own self interest.
And when you present someone who has actually defended this country, I'll
thank them profusely. But no veteran other than WWII vets have done so, and
WWII vets I do thank profusely.
I have to side with Pascoand all the others that feel this is important.
The military does lots of secret things we never hear about.
I have no idea what a persons service was, or what they did, so saying a small token thank you is worth it to me.
I also think we need to take better care of returning vets.
Not with a monthly check, but actually see to the social and such entering.
We shouldn't just assume everyone is tough mentally and drop them back in to regular life after they'd killed or survived for the past couple years.
I think calling it a token thank you is very telling.
This is why I'm largely agreeing with Cody here.
If someone has seen service or whatnot, even if they didn't actually defend the country doing it, that's worth at least something. And I think we're pretty much all in agreement that vets need better taking care of in some ways.
All that being said, however, you aren't a hero just because you choose to get into the military.
In truth, I try to take military people on a case-by-case basis. If I know someone who has served, I don't just thank them on Remembrance Day or whatever. I try and remember what they've done where it's relevant. Token thank-you gestures or days where everything's blown way out of shape don't really help anyone.
Do want to make a bit of a point though, regarding dangerous jobs.
The main reason people don't get tons of credit if they're garbage-collectors or crab fishermen or whatever is because those jobs don't have anything to do with security. One is a social service most people don't think twice about (which is a bit sad in its own right), and the other is fringe enough that a lot of people don't know about it. Your vets, though? Well, war is something that pretty much everyone knows about to one extent or another. Thus the greater publicity, the greater emphasis. It's not your garbagemen who will take up arms if the country gets invaded, after all.
I know, but I think that in and of itself sheds a lot of light on this idea that the
military is defending our countries. America hasn't been invaded since 1813
when the British did it. Technically you could say it was also invaded in 1863
when Lee came up from Virginia, but most historians don't call that an invasion.
Canada hasn't been invaded since 1812, and its was the americans who invaded
you. England was bombed, but not invaded, and even that was in 1939-1945.
Even Pearl Harbor for america was a tiny pinprick all told. I suppose that, if you
realy really want to get technical, you could make the claim that Alaska was
invaded by the Japanese, but it was one small island, at the tip of a chain of
islands, where even Alaskan natives didn't like to go. Hardly much of an
invasion. So who exactly are the troops defending us from again?
The troops aren't so much protecting us from being literally invaded. They're protecting our interests if war should break out. This is especially true given the fact that when you go to war with one country, that country is rarely ever on its own. It's got friends, and those friends will rally to its aid almost every time. And who do you think makes up the "friends", in most cases? It's the military.
I guess what I'm saying is that I agree we don't necessarily need a big day to honour every single military person as a hero when many of them aren't. But at the same time, I think it bears remembering that in a time of trouble, it might just be the military that ultimately saves your ass.
But that's kinda my problem, or its at least a facet of it. wE have, and sorry if
this isn't true of canada, but in america we have this complex where we feel the
need to deep throat uncle sam whenever possible. We sing the national athem
at every event we can possibly squeeze it into. we have flags on everything. We
salute the troops at everything from baseball games to backyard barbecues.
Then, when people stand up against the government, or try to voice
displeasure, those same troops are used against us.
Take the NFL protests. Its a protest against police brutality, but since it
involves the national anthem, people say its disrespectful to the troops. Even
though it has nothing to do with them. So the troops become this holy grail that
we're not allowed to touch.
so then, when we go to war, usually with a defenseless country that has
nothing to do with us I.E iraq, afghanastan, panama, grenada, korea, vietnam
and the baltic nations, any questioning of that war is seen as being disloyal to
the troops. we don't support them. Even though all we want is for them to be
safe at home with their families and not getting shot at by people we don't like
for one reason or another.
Then, we have veterans day, where we're supposed to thank our troops, and
conservatives get up and shove Uncle Sam's dick down their throats as hard as
they can to distract you from the fact that they, the day after veterans day,
voted down a bill that would have extended health care to the veterans they
were thanking the day before. We use thanking our vets as this way to make
ourselves feel better about how hypocritical we are when it comes to war. Yeah,
we vote against the interest of the vest, use them as pawns in a political game
where they lose their lives for american interests, never get used to actually
defend america, and are forgotten afterwards in hopes that they don't kill
themselves, which they frequently do, but we thank them one day a year, so
we're good people. Its disgusting, and I, for one, don't do it. I don't do token
gestures to make myself feel better. I do real action, like volunteering for
homeless shelters, where far too many vets end up, and voting for candidates
who actually want to take care of our vets and get less of them killed. Yet
somehow, I'm being a prick here.
No, I'm not saying you're being a prick. I did say I get where you're coming from. I'm playing a little devil's advocate trying to understand the other side, because I mostly agree with your last post. The hypocrisy surrounding American respect for the military is incredible.
And no. Canada isn't quite that patriotic. Oh sure, we have flags and many of us are proud of our military, and we wouldn't want someone screwing around with the anthem. But we're not quite so militant about it, I suppose.
As I said before, the very idea that we need one day to thank/recognize the veterans just so we can feel good about ourselves or forget about them the rest of the time, that bugs me a great deal.
I know you weren't calling me a prick. Bill was.
I absolutely see your point Cody, but saying thanks to that guy, or girl that can't remember their name because they went to war they didn't even give a damn about is a small price.
They supported America, and that is worth my thank you.
I agree with Wayne. It's a matter of respect and gratitude. It's only for one day, but after all, so is Mother's day and Father's day.
But it shouldn't be for one day, that's my point. If you say its only for one day,
you aren't really thanking them.
In that case you'd have to ditch all the other 1 day deals.
Sure it is one day, but the people that care do it as often as possible.
Not in words, but acts.
Like mothers day, you do it once a year, but if you love your mother, you are always doing something for her, or making her know it.
If that's our standard, our country fucking hates its veterans, it doesn't thank
them.
Cody, what is pricky is essentially dissing soldiers just because they didn't happen to be in WW 2. Dissing those of us who wish to show gratitude to those who work to protect us. Yes, we should care every day, and assuming those of us who are saying thanks do not care every day is presumptuous on your part. Also, essentially blaming troops for the policies of our civilian leaders. You claim every action since %WW 2 was wrong so no thanks is needed. Maybe so, maybe not, but don't blame the troops. As far as your prejudice towards WW 2 troops, I'd point out that of the 1.5 million troops in the millitary during WW 2, only about 250,000 actually saw combat. By your statements, you don't think the remaining 1.25 million troops deserve anything like thanks from us.
So, my point is, don't condemn those of us who want to show some appreciation by foisting your self righteous opinions and derision on those of us who honor are millitary people. That is what is prickish. If you want to be that way, that's your right, but there is no need to condemn those of us who feel differently.
I apologize, I made an error in my last post. A lot more troops served in WW 2 than I stated. I was erroneously remembering the number of front line infantry in the pacific compared to the troops in support, and rear echelon roles. Just read a book on it. My point was though that nearly 40 percent of WW 2 troops were in rear echelon not combat missions, and only a minority were actually on the front line as combat infantry. Rear echelon troops still deserve thanks, and support troops not in active combat still get killed. Sorry to confuse things.
Even now support troops deserve thanks.
It take lots of people power to run a military.
All aren't going to be heros and on the front lines, but that service is just as important.
Nurses, doctors, cooks, people that service the equipment, you name it.
I never said that only combat troops deserve gratitude from World war II.
That would mean that drove the trucks wouldn't deserve thanks, and that's
simply not true.
I will spell out my point as clearly as i can. The common phrase to veterans is
"thank you for your service". My point is that soldiers these days do not serve.
Most join the military for college, or for pay, or to escape a bad situation. They
weren't drafted. They didn't leave their job at a bank or something to join up
because they felt it their patriotic duty. We simply don't have that kind of
military anymore. So, to me, its no different than any other job.
That being said, because many of the soldiers who see combat return with
psychological problems, we need to care for them. But not simply because they
were soldiers, but because they are people. I don't differentiate between
veterans and normal people. That's where I stand.
And I personally has seen your point.
I just think it a good thing to thank folks that keep my life easier no matter why they took the job.
Some did sign up for love of country, and some were on the front lines.
You don't know unless you question them all to learn what exactly they did, and why.
Just easier to say thanks over all.
Better even still to support them once they come back from whatever it was they did.
So then, that returns us to my original argument. We don't thank our garbage
collecters, or our street cleaners or sewer maintenance workers. Why do we
reserve thanks for our veterans? If we're thanking them for amking our lives
better, I'd rank them far down on that list. If I'd even put them on the list at all
these days.
Here comes another devil's advocate answer, Cody. Remember, I mostly agree with you.
Personally, I have always seen Remembrance Day/Veteran's Day not only as a way to thank current vets/more recent ones, but as a way to take a little time to remember the ones that fell in droves during wars now long over. I think it would be fair to say that most people know at least one person or family with a dead vet in its past, and as such, remembering/honouring the dead is a part of it for me.
So I guess what I'm asking is, what's wrong with that?
Remember that I personally don't think we need only one day to do this, and I realize that we haven't seen full-out war in some time, and that any military service now is of the completely voluntary sort (no one's forcing you into it).
More and more, what I'm coming to is this:
I may not make a big deal out of this particular day, but if other people do, I say let 'em. Ditto Valentine's Day, which is arguably four times as silly and is being relentlessly milked as the cash cow that it is.
But I would really love to see veterans, both alive and dead, remembered in context, not just raised on pedestals for one day and then forgotten. And by "in context" I mean that in the true sense of the word. I don't mean they should all be honoured all the time, and that we should all be constantly thankful for their service, their death, their willingness to go and do what we will not or cannot.
The main reason you'll see this day remembered and honoured and made into a big deal is because in large part, it honours the dead. There's your answer.
Cody, many people serve us for pay. When a waiter serves you well, do you not give him a tip? When that same waiter brings your food, do you not say thank you? Do you not thank your cab driver for prompt delivery to the right place? Do you not thank anyone for doing a good job? If you bother to thank any person providing you service, why not thank the soldiers providing you service? Or perhaps you thank no one? If that is the case then you do not understand gratitude. It is easy to be a grouch. But life is so much sweeter if people show gratitude, or even just appreciation.